Haruna Borg and Mark Borg are both couple therapists who understand very well the impact of the lockdown on our mental health. Personally, they have lost patients to the COVID, and they also saw couples virtually, even when they came down with the COVID, . And at the same they are parenting their two school going kids. The couple is no stranger to the fact that tempers tend to flare when you are living 24/7 with someone you love locked up in a tiny space that serves as home, office, play area and gym.
In this episode, the Borgs, talk about setting boundaries in your relationship and why its important to constant keep working on your relationship with your significant other.
Listen to part 1 of this conversation here
Haruna Borg and Mark Borg are both couple therapists who understand very well the impact of the lockdown on our mental health. Personally, they have lost patients to the COVID, and they also saw couples virtually, even when they came down with the COVID, . And at the same they are parenting their two school going kids. The couple is no stranger to the fact that tempers tend to flare when you are living 24/7 with someone you love locked up in a tiny space that serves as home, office, play area and gym.
In this episode, the Borgs, talk about setting boundaries in your relationship and why its important to constant keep working on your relationship with your significant other.
Listen to part 1 of this conversation here
Hello and welcome to heroes of New York, a podcast about everyday heroes who have refused to let the pandemic stop them from serving others. In every episode, I will introduce to you someone who has risen about the odds to uplift people around them. I'm your host, Anu Senan. Mark and Hernan Welcome back to the show.
Unknown Speaker :Thank you. Thank you happy to be here again.
Unknown Speaker :Yeah, happy to be happy to have you We had a great first episode, people have responded very positively. They found it very useful. You told us how to handle conflicts and the impact of toxic positivity. And in continuing with that discussion today, we want to hear more on how to set boundaries. When couples and families are locked into the same space for long durations of time. It's hard to see these invisible boundaries. You know, I see my husband but during the day, he's not just my husband. He's also working for us office. He's a father. He's Son, and all these different roles merge into each other. And as we spend more time like I think it's been eight or 10 weeks now, when we're together, it's very difficult to see these distinct roles that each person plays and the responsibilities that come with it. Do you see that in your life? Well,
Unknown Speaker :just to answer that question, what we what I can tell you is that this is my office. This is my bedroom. This is where I do homework with my children. This is where we watch you and videos and do yoga. This is this, this is a space right here. If I turned the camera over, you would see the bed if I turn, if I turn it to the right, if I turn it to the left, you went to the bathroom so that that's my answer to your question.
Unknown Speaker :Yes, a same here too. It's boundaries are blurred.
Unknown Speaker :To say the least. Or we are
Unknown Speaker :you know, maybe all parents Taking care of so many things in the same space. And in in the same confinement, not only same space, but same confinement, that it's good to talk about boundaries today. Yes. How do you set boundaries so that we can function as a couple function as a family?
Unknown Speaker :Yeah. How do we do that? I mean, how do we have this conversation?
Unknown Speaker :I think that we can riff actually on what you said. I mean, you said it very well, about your husband that all of a sudden you notice that it's not just your husband, it's the father of your son. It's the person who has a job. It's the person who is probably himself a son and has friendships and has other roles. And I think role is the key operational term here, that when we see these roles, we I think, don't often realize consciously the degree to which we identify with those roles. And in certain schools of thinking, those roles each come with a different version of self or self experience. And when we operate in our normal life, each one of those cells has this identity that responds to the environment. So there's the environment at work, there's the environment at school, there's the environment. In my peer groups, there's the environment in my most significant relationship, which I think is the one that we're talking about today, or talking. You know, we're identifying with the idea of how being a partner how being a husband or a wife, in this case, you know, is really challenged with all of these roles, and all of these identities, and all of these experiences itself are compressed into one small space. Each one of these cells responds to an environment. So we're responding to our parents self, our worker, self, our therapist, in our case, self, and yet we're also trying to be partners to each other. So those boundaries can can get very, very, very blurry.
Unknown Speaker :Yeah, Mark, thank you for saying that. I think what's helpful for me and perhaps for us, and is really, you know, checking in with each other and really also talking about what my days like and what he's days like and when he he gets out of his work and when I get out of my work, and when am I transitioning to a teacher homeschool teacher role that you know going over a homework with one of our children and you know, when we are going to eat so really taking in with a boundary here is almost like scheduling a taking game and that also involves role change. Yeah, if we pay very close attention to that from being a therapist, Being a homeschool teacher to being a mother preparing meal and you know sort of checking we need to then we can have a dinner together. I think also setting up a schedule for bus Can, can can meet and share a meal is also important and, you know, sort of like a maybe vague understanding of maybe four of us watching a show together or four of us kind of having a separate time you know, own time. So, yes, that that sort of boundary that I can come up with with scheduling on the gray the boundary here is yes,
Unknown Speaker :I hear two things there. One is having your own time in this lockdown is very interesting, know how you can do that where you can manage to have some time alone, because there are two things that I noticed in the lockdown one that you need social connection to where you need time alone and both are important for us. our well being right? How do we strike this balance? How do you manage to make time alone? You know, for each of you if there are four members in the family? And last, how do we schedule this? Do we do this on a daily basis? Do you do this weekly? Is there an agreement ongoing agreement on who does what?
Unknown Speaker :I love the term? I love the term agreement because that's exactly what we're talking about. See, we realized a long time ago well before this, that almost anything can be handled effectively, if there's an agreement and the the primary example that we come up with how to non-i is the situation where you're upset with your child, you know, when you're when you're maybe you're in the disciplinarian role, and, and we've got this situation where we realize that if one of us is sort of starting to lose our patience or lose our cool if one of us is starting to boil over, and the other one comes up and sort of tags in, like here, I got this, then under the right circle. stances that feels like support that feels like care that feels like help under the wrong circumstances that feels like criticism. So much like that. There's an agreement that Houghton and I have made with each other, it doesn't always work as we know from the last time. But we've made this kind of agreement that if one of us is boiling over, the other one can tack tag in and say, Hey, I got this, you know, let me let me let me take over here to help you. And I think that when you have agreements, then what you have is you each one of these circumstances is like a mini experiment. And the same is true with scheduling Time, time for myself time for each other time for the children and maybe even time for peers. Mostly, of course, these days, that's via zoom. But But when we have these agreements, when we started this, we didn't know what these agreements were going to be like. So my strong suggestion for couples is to talk about it, talk about it and talk about it as much as you possibly can the most in the most mind, minute detail and then set that out. As an experiment, here's the experiment, you know, I'm going to take this time and I'm going to go for a walk by myself, or I'm going to go for a walk with my child, or we're going to go for a walk with each other. Those are all different activities that might actually provide some real relief in this time.
Unknown Speaker :Yes. And that, you know, I think I knew that's a very good questions how to balance a long time and togetherness, a time for togetherness, and how do you come up with it? That I think, you know, what, what works for us, is, I think completely unique to us. So we need to talk about that. And we need to set up a time for a long time and time for together and that's whether that's a time for for just two of us or time for four of us. And that I think each couple can figure out what works for them. So he requires a lot of, you know, discipline Question and conversation because, you know, I think, you know, a lot of people might be working from home some of some of us still I mean, we are We both are working from home, but, you know, some of some of you are kind of a, you know, still maybe healthcare worker needs to go to the hospital and have, you know, complete 12 hour shifts and come home. That's a very different schedule compared to ours. And maybe perhaps they can decide what works for them. And, you know, I want to, you know, well, I want to add what Mark said, and, you know, the agreement when we execute agreement, I think we also have disagreement that we do it with a kindness and understanding when we talk, hey, I think you can take a break with this kindness, you know, I understand how hard it is. So then Take over. But do it with kindness and understanding instead of like you are doing it wrong, that criticism so that you know you, I think that each couple can decide what might be the agreement that works for them, but sort about a do it with kindness and understanding.
Unknown Speaker :Well, the other thing I want to add to that, because it's so important is that if you listen to our first episode, you know that he and I are sort of the the masters of the mistake, that we are the masters of making mistakes, like our whole thing is, I'm going to tag in the first time and I'm not going to get it right, I'm going to tag in the first time and even if I'm like the height of kindness and love and care, it might not be experienced that way. Because maybe you're tagging in or maybe I'm tagging it to a very hot circumstance. Maybe I'm tagging into a circumstance which is just it's like a it's right, prefer someone else feel it to feel criticized. And that's why when we first develop some of these techniques, We had to build in the mistake we had to build in failure. Because when it comes to setting boundaries, it's all about circumstance, context, emotional atmosphere, it's about your mood you're in, it's not the mood that your partners. It's not simple and even making agreements, also has to include
Unknown Speaker :that. Yeah, we made this agreement, but I might not be there this time. I might say it this time, and you might be feeling already criticized. And so when I say, Hey, I'll tag in to help you, you might really hear me saying you suck. You are doing a terrible job. And this has happened between us, you know, many, many times. Wait, wait, am I hearing this that when you say you have these ongoing agreements and many experiments, right, do you also stop and reflect on purpose or distant work? Well, I know last, in the last episode, we discussed it, but on an ongoing basis for every other mini experiment that you have. Do you really stop and ask yourself did this work well for us How should we do this better?
Unknown Speaker :Right? That's that.
Unknown Speaker :Yes, yes. I think we do sort of have although we haven't named that yet. We sort of do have debriefing afterwards. Did it work this time? It didn't work this time what was missing? Yeah, what could what could I have said differently? What do I want you you to say differently? So we all kind of briefly talk about what worked, what didn't work. Thank you. You know, thank you for tagging in maybe, you know, in the case of success, you know, sort of acknowledging the other one that thank you for kind of, uh, you know, getting a baton from me I was really like rivaling and so it's really you know, it's me are still kind of you know, experimenting or and sometimes Yes, I think it you know, we fail we make mistakes and that you know, but we are we remember Remember that we, we look after each other, and that failure is part of that.
Unknown Speaker :And we have a really good embarrassing example if we're ready to hear it.
Unknown Speaker :Well, you know, we can go for a walk again.
Unknown Speaker :So here, here's my attempt, here's my experiment and my attempt at not failing, but let's see. So, so here we are, a, what, a few weeks ago, having this interview with you. And here you are asking these really wonderful questions. And here we are with these tools that we use with each other and we actually use with our patients, we use these with our clients. We are the test model, we are patient zero in terms of the couple, we we work these things out together, and then we implement them with our clients, you know, so that our clients get a sense of real deep empathy. But I you know, obviously you're looking at us here and our our listeners won't be but you know, we're very different. We come from tonight. from places we come from different cultures, you know, we have different races, we have so many differences between us, um, that one of the things that we did not discuss prior to our first meeting with you was the boundary of our self revelation. So there we are, on this interview with you, discussing our relationship, discussing our history discussing a very, very significant, a problem that we had. And we use that problem to really discuss the way that we use failure, what we also call rupture, to heal to we use failure, we use rupture, to join each other in a process of repair that then creates increasing intimacy. So, interestingly, we didn't talk about how much to discuss we didn't talk about how much to reveal we didn't talk about how much to tell you in this live interview. And, you know, we come to discover that I'm a little bit more. How should we say exhibitionistic than my lovely wife? And so that was not exactly a failure per se. But when we left this interview with that night, we had a very serious discussion about comfort about how much to reveal about whether or not our clients might be listening and looking at us going, Oh my god, those two are doing couples therapy, what the hell is wrong?
Unknown Speaker :You know, brother, right, my therapist, you know, Doctor boards and like say, you know, time for a new shrink
Unknown Speaker :so don't you know, it's very funny, but I mean, we really use this process of this was a boundary issue. And it wasn't so much that I broke the boundaries. Oh, I think in many ways I very well, could have a that's a way of framing that. But it's less but fortunately We were able to use the boundary ideal, you know, what would be a joint boundary. And so we talked about it, we actually had a long discussion about boundaries this afternoon, prior to being here, so we could talk about boundary. So we call this it my school of thinking actually, it took we have this fancy word for it. It's called ISO morph. And ISO morph means when you're talking about the thing that you're actually playing out, or actually playing out this process. So we're not just talking to you about boundaries in this esoteric theoretical way how to not I have joined each other. And we've used our first interview with you as a kind of a boundary breach that then we're going to reel back in now and continue our discussion. So
Unknown Speaker :does that mean you won't be revealing much on this interview? This
Unknown Speaker :is the revelation I knew this
Unknown Speaker :is the revolution.
Unknown Speaker :The revolution I was gonna say, this is the revelation the revelation is these two strings. Don't always like You know, get their act together prior to the interview, although it did, I think turned out to be quite a lovely interview. Thank you. We just got embarrassed and had to reel back our embarrassment. So we could be here and tell you now that we were did that was that not not failure but that was the that was the rupture and we're hoping this is the repair so so we boundary breach it and then we came to these agreements and now Why don't I can tell you her her take on this because it was really Okay.
Unknown Speaker :Um, so yeah, I think with that experience of the very first interview we had with you, I think it came to this. Yeah, discussion of what can be kept private and what can be kept a public and that we come to this understanding that we have a very different understanding of, you know, so to privacy and how much we would like to share with the public and I think it's, you know, we are doing this interview together that we want to I think, Oh, my what, what's my understanding of what kept private and
Unknown Speaker :what's kept,
Unknown Speaker :what can be revealed to the public is, again, this collaboration based on our discussion what what I feel comfortable with, how much to share and what he feels comfortable with. And we both needed to sort of have a discussion we will be prepared that respecting each other's boundary and saying, okay, like, my comfort and he's gone forward. Might be very different. So what can we do? Can we meet in the middle?
Unknown Speaker :Yeah, can we you know, can we You know, this time, can you meet me a little more? This time? I can meet you in the middle. I think it's it's sort of a case by case and maybe topics by topics. But you know, it's this, again, this communication because we are both therapists, but we are We come from a very different a world that he's from here, United States, California, and I'm from Japan. That does so that itself, I think, yeah, speaks a lot about how differently we think a lot of absolutely yes, I can totally relate because I come from India. So culturally, we all are different. We have different perspectives and takes on this, but what I can glean from this conversation that we are having is that you take your relationship as a work in progress. So you're constantly working on it. You're constantly reflecting and improving. And I don't know if every couple does that. For some. It's like You know, you've always been this way, or our relationship is always like this, like it's set in stone. They're not looking at improving it or working on it. You know, it's very definite for them that this is how this person is I'm not going to do anything to change it.
Unknown Speaker :Right. Well, I really appreciate what you said. And I appreciate what he said, because even with a bigger topic of boundaries, which I think is crucial, you know, I think it gets so overplayed, it becomes so much psychobabble. But really we don't function without boundaries. We don't function without a cohesive sense of self, and even a cohesive sense of self and other. So you know, what we're really saying in this work in progress idea, is it nobody knows exactly what the boundaries are gonna turn out to be? We probably come into each relationship with a set of boundary expectations that we brought with us from our culture, from our history, from our status from our experience in other relationships. And then if we're open to it, and how to not die, for the most part are we try to be then you get to ask actually play play around with what the boundaries are. Because the boundaries that were acceptable and that were status quo prior to lockdown are, as we've been talking about dramatically different now, if we let them be, if we stay in those rigid roles, with those rigid expectations with those rigid senses of our own identity throughout the course of this, not only might we get stuck and wind up kind of grinding up against each other, you know, in terms of boundaries, you know, I'll fight for mine, you fight for yours. That's one kind of boundary that's a very kind of static, brittle, impermeable boundary. What we're talking about is is, you know, permeable boundaries not not that they don't exist, not that they're not important, but that they shift and they change with the circumstances. And and so we take this interview with you the first one to be another moment for us of you know, of exploration. If I wouldn't, I don't know if I'd want to get kind of dramatic to say enlightenment, but there is a sense of enlightenment and empowerment when you know something about yourself and your partner because you failed, because you stepped into that territory. And when he told me after the first meeting with you, you know that she was uncomfortable at first I was like, Well, you know, I thought it went really well. And I think that and all I knew she was so generous and she, you know, what, you know, whatever. That was my firt you know, because I felt embarrassed, you know, I was embarrassed that I had gone clomping like I, you know, I when I was younger, you know, I used to hear I am about to do, I'm about, I'm about to be exhibitionistic again so so sensor this if you need to, but when I was having a zoom meeting with my surfer buddies in California a couple days ago, we meet every, every other week, bunch of surfer guys and there used to be this pier and see there's still a pier in Seal Beach that lights up at night and we used to get in Make it and go surfing. You know, we used to go surfing naked on this on the Seal Beach Pier. You know, when it was warm in the summertime, that's 30 years ago, this was 30 years ago. Yes, still, but still we relish the experience of, you know, of this nude surfing. So, I mean, and the reason why I'm telling you that is because, you know, obviously someone who's willing to go surfing naked off appear probably has different boundaries than somebody. I would say I don't know what the character I but but then then her.
Unknown Speaker :But I think Mark that's exactly the point. Right? If you have two extreme personalities, it's still possible to have a great relationship. And I think that's what we want to talk about. How do you maintain a great working relationship despite having different boundaries to fight despite having a totally different personality types?
Unknown Speaker :I think the first reaction that I have to that is kind of along the lines of what I was saying is the first thing thing that I did. So, the moment after our meeting with you, we have this discussion right away. I know we came downstairs and said hello to you. But we were already in this discussion. And I think the most important first moment to get to your question is you, I had to question my own expectations. I realized that I had an expectation and not only an expectation, I just beat her talking about whatever I felt comfortable with, but an expectation that she should and that's a really dirty word when it comes to boundaries should it's the worst term you can possibly apply. Because when you say should then in a in a relationship that approximating health, when you use the word should you what you do is you impose your expectations on your partner. And that afternoon, I started to impose my expectations on not enough.
Unknown Speaker :Um, I would say that how do you know maintain your relationship And, you know, how do you navigate this? maybe perhaps a polar opposite, you know, looking like extreme difference because you and your partner are very different creatures basically, that, you know, I am thinking here that that there is this almost a dichotomy we have to be we acknowledge or I acknowledge that though, you know, the opposite attract the opposite personality that, you know, that's very attractive about how different hairs but at the same time, it could be a source of frustration and conflict too. So at the time of frustration and conflict, what do I do, how to navigate this, you know, now the attraction turning turning into a conflict or a big argument that I I would say that, you know, I, again, I mean, this is what we shared at that the previous interview that I will remain in my, in my position. So speaking my experience through the position of I, you know, I felt this way and, you know, you know, so share my experience, but at the same time, you know, photobomb making a request that, can we do it differently. Yeah, so that, you know, that my partner Mark knows what I needed, what I want for the next, you know, at the next time if something similar similar happens so that way, yeah, that's always that, you know, seems like two things that I have, you know, in my mind, you know, sharing my experience, how maybe, perhaps, uncomfortable I felt in that moment. So what can we do? differently, what do I want him to do differently?
Unknown Speaker :So that that makes me think of? How is it that you phrase it back to the person to your spouse, right? You could say, that was embarrassing, or I was upset. Or you could just say, can you consider how I feel in this situation? So put your arm forward in a way that the other person also accepts it and you can work on it, right? It's how you ask for it. That's
Unknown Speaker :exactly right. Because it has to be heard. And, and and like I said, so my first I could not hear how to nose request through my own embarrassment. But when I realized that I was imposing this should I should be able to say whatever I want, I got all this experiment, blah, blah, blah. You know, that was my first reaction. Fortunately, like we talked about last time, we do have pause buttons. We are able to hit pause, we are able to consider each other's position. And when I heard what Hakuna was really saying what what I heard her say Same was what I think is the cornerstone of health in any relationship. And it was loosened in this moment. What she said was I felt unsafe. And it was this quiet moment. Because safety in a relationship is about the agreed upon boundaries, the consensus on what is safe between the two people what the ultimate of boundaries are, you think about what a boundary is in nature. It's the place that separates inside from outside. And a boundary between two people separates us, in this case from you from the interview from the process from the public. And when hotness said and what I heard this very sweet, tender voice reaching out to me and saying, Mark, if I'm going to feel safe, we're going to have to agree on what's a decent, healthy boundary between us on new and the listening public. And I heard that and my heart softened. And I listened. And I didn't hear and I no longer heard it as a criticism because at first, I heard it as a criticism. I heard it as mark the wild man mark the old surfer mark, the Daredevil mark, the guy who, you know, surfs naked. But and that guy, you know, I like that guy. But, but that guy, that's not who has committed to love and care and be kind to this woman in this relationship. So, you know, it's like you said, I knew and he said it so well, you know, you've got to say it in a way that can be heard. It has to be and sometimes that means not saying it in the moment of extreme emotion, that maybe sometimes you say it, after you've been able to sort of hit pause and let things quiet down. But how to know what you know how to not I've been working on this for a long time. And she didn't say it directly. Didn't say it as clearly as I felt unsafe, but I heard her say it felt unsafe, and then we were able to to really talk more clearly about what the second interview would be like, right?
Unknown Speaker :And it's very insightful. What Mark just said about this is going to the core of what a boundary means it's about your safety net. Do you feel safe and secure? Is this a safe and secure environment for you to just be? Right? And also about hearing the other person? Sometimes, like in this example, when harness speaks to you may not hear you see the criticism and you become defensive? It's hard to see her or hear or understand the actual meat of the speaker for the listener, and then for the person who's asking it's about how you word it, how do you phrase it? How do you put it across in such a way that they actually understand what your concern is? So it's a two way street. That exactly
Unknown Speaker :right. Yes. Yes. And that, you know, I to go to that place of sort of like righteousness and like, oh, he should this center be Oh, what I am saying and request thing is right. And, you know, must be hard and, you know, all this, you know, righteous place that I can I went and I can go any time during this, you know, negotiation we do discussion but also it's a negotiation and you know, I think we all learnt learn to both of us or I can just speak speak for myself, I didn't learn to sit with a with a discomfort at times and you know, kind of going in between like me, you know, making a request and this and then listening again because, you know, he has something to say about my request, and then again, I make another request. So, you know, let me say it again, you know, let me explain, and you know, so this taking turns, making a request and listening and you know, Gain kind of like bouncing ideas and sort of like, collaboratively, you know, collaboratively figuring out what works for us. And, yeah, what can we do differently? And so that we both for fi will would feel safe. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker :It makes me wonder, you know, you're you're psychotherapists, you've been in this profession for very long so you really know what works and you can apply it, you're applying that, but for a lot of couples, maybe one person is more vocal or can speak about feelings, the other person is quieter. I think I'm driving this point home. Yes. Okay. Doesn't necessarily believe in speaking about, oh, I feel this way. You made me feel this way. I say that my husband doesn't, right. So you also have couples like that? Yes. And what we're talking about here is having conversations, open conversations, setting expectations. And that means both of them Don't have to participate in that dialogue.
Unknown Speaker :Mm hmm. That's right. Well, and and and again, remember, how did I both started our conversation from a position of should, you know, I'm like, you should accept me as I am. And she's like, you should, you know, respect me as I am. You know, we we start from that should, but what we keep talking about is the creation of a place in the middle, a place that is, let's say, there's, there's you there's me, and then there's us. There's hot now there's me. And then there's this third thing that is the entity that is our relationship itself. And so there's, there's an invitation to that place. And yes, I find that in a lot of couples, one person is often much more willing, or at least at first seems to be willing to send the invitation to the other person, but I also find that a lot of times the person is uncomfortable sending an ongoing invitation to the other person, because they're pretty sure the other person won't come like you know, Dre, come on, let's talk about this. Come on, let's talk about this and you talk about more and more, because you're pretty, you can take that risk, knowing that the other person isn't going to meet that is going to accept the invitation. So what I say in that case, you've got to be very careful. Because if you're not willing to shift the way that you make that, send that invitation, then basically you're all but ensuring that you're not going to have to have this difficult conversation, which means back to, you know, 101 of Mark and hotness therapy laboratory, which is, it is an experiment you have to keep experimenting with what doesn't doesn't work, what works, you add it to the toolbox, what doesn't work you discard, if going to your partner over and over again and saying, let's talk about this doesn't work, then you're gonna have to find another way to create a middle ground together, even if it just means sitting silently with whatever it is comfort and waiting to see what arises because as we're saying, it has to feel safe and for Some people, you know, safety takes a while to even begin to experience with somebody takes. Who knows how long I mean, every single couple is not enough, especially at the beginning is different.
Unknown Speaker :Yeah, thank you, Mark for saying that. And that I would like to add to what Mark just shared. And I think we both because we both a therapist that we have that vantage of speaking the language of relationships. So we are as both of us are equipped to talk about what goes on between us verbally. And I think I can just talk about my culture, Japanese culture that you know, a lot of Japanese couples don't talk about what goes on in their relationship, but they they know how to sort of resolve their issues, some of them and some of them, don't. But I think it's what I am thinking here is that you know sort of like making amends verbally and that is also a making amends by kindness by making amends by suggesting quality time making amends by you know, bringing a thumb you know, something that your partner likes. Third, there are so many ways to rekindle togetherness and the relationship warms up the relationship. Yeah. And so, there there are behavioral ways to kind of resolve issues and you know, like, the culture that I am from a lot of people kind of bring,
Unknown Speaker :you know, make amends by
Unknown Speaker :by showing behavioral expression of love. And another thing that I am thinking, thinking here is that You know, for those couples who, you know, like you were saying I knew this kind of dynamics of one wants to talk about it and the other one is not ready or maybe never ready to talk about what went on that I think for for for maybe those couples I wonder that you you kind of set up a time that you talk about things if that that issue comes up comes up over and over in your relationship that may be every other Sunday or every other Monday at certain time. You could when you are calm you bring it up not right after that happened so that you can you can kind of talk about, you know, how that affected you in a more calm, you know, peaceful manner that likely maybe perhaps your partner is more willing to to respond
Unknown Speaker :That's another kind of a thought I had. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker :yeah. Usually, um, you know, we use this technique that we talked about last time this this structured meeting, we used it every time we had a problem for a long time we still do. But how to know maybe a couple years ago had this incredibly wonderful idea. Why don't we have that meeting when things are going well? Why don't we have that meeting to talk about how great things are right now? Why don't we have that meeting, to call attention to our gifts and our talents and our assets and how well we're doing as a couple how we got through this financial crisis, how we got through this parenting catastrophe when you know, we both at different times had to go talk to the principal last year, you know, I mean, like about one of our children. So, there I might be exposing too much again.
Unknown Speaker :But I know that we have to run by our
Unknown Speaker :Oh my god. But you know, I mean, that the thing that I think we keep coming back to and the word that I think is pivotal to this discussion is around safety around boundaries, around discussions around how you talk about if you talk about goes back to that quiet word of agreement. And, you know, most of us just don't know, like, the example of the last interview was a great example. Because we didn't have an agreement going in. We had no agreement. We were flying by the seat of our pants. It was a free for all, you know, okay. So it was entertaining. Okay, so it was embarrassing. Okay, so we had to do the very thing that we were talking about. We had to have this structured meeting and I had to get defensive and how to not have to do her thing and bla bla bla, so great. But what we didn't have is we didn't have an agreement. And in not having agreement. We didn't have boundaries. What we have today with you is we have an agreement, are we getting it perfectly right? Tip with you this in this interview, I don't know, we'll talk about it later. haven't built in the in our grid our agreements are experiments that we can absolutely fail. And then if we fail, we'll probably be defensive and you know, or whatever in the beginning, but that that will only be the beginning of the conversation, not the end. And that's how you go about having relational health. You have it as an open conversation. We've even talked about the possibility that a relationship really is just a long term, ongoing conversation to get deeper and more intimate, more loving and more empathetic and more, more invested as you go.
Unknown Speaker :Mm hmm. I had another question for you. Especially during the lockdown as people find themselves locked in for long periods of time, the chances of criticizing each other and, you know, noticing their let's say weaknesses becomes more prominent, you know, it's in your face every single day, and it's hard to resist criticizing people. The other person, what's the best way around that?
Unknown Speaker :Well, I actually don't think there is a good way around that. I think that because I never think about around I never think around you, when I think about around is, if you go around, you're just inviting a return. So I think the best way to get through to deal with criticism is to go right through it. Here I am noticing that I criticized my wife. And rather than trying to work around it, trying to realize Wait, what was going on with me that rather than approaching this from a position of my feelings about it, and wanting to have an open discussion and inviting someone to talk about this as a topic rather than I know that you did something wrong here. And here's a better way of going about it, that criticism? I think we have to see ourselves we have to catch ourselves in the act, if we're going to actually use even criticism. I know it's one of the four horsemen of the divorce apocalypse it is but it can also be used as an opening to this discussion of how did what was going on with me I felt like criticism was an appropriate tool to get through this problem. We know that it's not. We know that criticism is just an invitation to defense. So what was going on with me that I wasn't open to having a more productive conversation? I don't think it's about looking at ourselves and just saying, Oh, we shouldn't criticize, it's about really recognizing what it is that's going on in us, that then results in criticism, it becomes again, it becomes the rupture that we then can use as another example, of us failing or me failing, so that my partner will join me in the repair we can even use something as as toxic as criticism, to call ourselves to develop ways of talking about difficult subjects.
Unknown Speaker :Thank you, Mark. I you know, it was really interesting for me to listen to, you know, what your perspective on criticism during this lockdown I, you know, as I was listening to you describe your experience your perspective on own criticism. In the in the lockdown, I was thinking how I think I am very critical person that my criticism. My criticism is directed at me a lot of times and can be directed up mark my partner and so how do I prevent myself from criticizing my partner? This is a really I think good question you are asking here on new and that you know sometimes by criticism, my criticism just comes out without me being aware and I really appreciate although i times i certainly defend But I really appreciate Mark letting me know, hey, I don't need to be criticized. I am doing my best here. I don't be I don't I don't appreciate you criticizing me. And I pause usually for, you know, maybe 10 seconds could be 20 seconds and say, did I criticize him? Did I not? So kind of checking in with me regarding that reality I stepped into and I'm, I make amends.
Unknown Speaker :Well, but there's a there's a really important point that you just made there too, which I think is brilliant. You said that what you hear is, you don't hear me criticizing you for criticizing. What you hear me say is something like I'm affected by it. Like I don't need it or I am hurt and then you respond. See this goes back to what we've heard and I've been talking about through the conversation so far is that when we're talking from our own experience, just like when Hannah said to me, she didn't say at the end of our last interview, she didn't say, Mark, you totally blew it. Mark, you bombed our interview. You've totally like, rip the covers off our relationship. I feel naked. You know, what she said was, it scared me? What she said was, it made me nervous. See, when you say it from the position of I, when you say it from the position of, I need your help to feel safe. That's what I'm saying to how to know. Or at least what she said. I'm saying what she hears me saying what calms her down. What allows her to put the criticism down, is when I say I don't need that. It hurts me. It affects me see, this is all everything we're talking about. is getting too deep. And deeper listening so that we can hear each other because ultimately when we can hear each other, then you don't even have to worry about criticism down the road. Because you're you are committed to helping your partner and not hurting them. And sometimes the line is very thin between helping and hurting. So often, we might think that we're trying to help our partner by offering them constructive criticism. But really, when push comes to shove, even construct what's called constructive criticism is usually some reaction to me feeling insecure, like Katarina was saying, so so being so vulnerable here on the on here with you again, you know, it's very, very, very touching that hardener was saying, I criticize myself first venue. So when we pull back the weapon of criticism, what we really do is we allow ourselves to put the weapon down that we've been Using against ourselves.
Unknown Speaker :And I'm thinking here that, you know, I'm
Unknown Speaker :that I think,
Unknown Speaker :kind of a criticism. So this criticism that I have, um, that, you know comes out time to time that gets directed at me or directed at mark is the criticisms that I learned growing up. And if I subject him subject a mark to my criticism, and he say, Hey, I don't need it hurts me and I become aware of my own kind of Yeah, my own my, my own sort of internal weapon in a way and me being aware of how to put down the weapon that I create not not only I create a room in a relationship, I think I am creating a room within myself that all that criticism can go, you know, doesn't have to come out here, criticism can can be put down. Like why is it that sort of I go to this place of self analysis, that why is it that criticism has to come out in this particular moment? What, what was going on with me, and I think more and more, I think sometimes we talk about it here, Mark and I, that how, you know, relationship can be very healing. And, you know, me personally growing up with a lot of criticism, and here learning to put down my criticism and letting it go, learning to let it go. It's creating a lot of internal health within myself. But also create a more forgiving, more loving, caring and healthy relationship here with Mark. Mm hmm.
Unknown Speaker :Yeah, I think that what you just touched upon this unlearning aspect is part of keeping your working relationship right. You have to keep on learning as you go. That's a great way of putting it. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker :Yes,
Unknown Speaker :I know we have very less time left. But do you want to touch upon the four horsemen Mark since you spoke about it, and not all of our listeners would be aware of them. The Four Horsemen
Unknown Speaker :were developed by john and Julie got men they are what they consider if they see an abundance of these when they're doing their research on couples. They these are predictors of divorce and they are as we talked about their criticism. They are defensiveness, they are contempt and they are stonewalling and stonewalling. The definition of stonewalling is basically the freeze out when you just punish your partner by not talking to them. They're they're very, very, very corrosive. Although we, you know, we hadn't and I talk a lot about, you know, the subject of the last on the last interview with you and and even a lot of what we've talked about in terms of tools today with boundaries and and agreements and tagging in, we find that we've actually developed some tools that we use that work against the four horsemen and you know, having these intimate conversations, creating safety, having boundaries, these are all options to stonewalling and criticizing and being defensive. And, you know, the one the one that they actually say is the relationship killer, the one that sort of like that the death knell for relationship is contempt. You know, there's that that just then they say that it gets communicated sometimes and just how you look at your partner.
Unknown Speaker :So, absolutely,
Unknown Speaker :yeah. That's the four horsemen.
Unknown Speaker :Thank you. I mean, this was a great conversation. Thank you for being so open and authentic with our listeners. I mean, I totally appreciate it. I've been here From a lot of people have heard the previous episodes saying how good it was. And this has been great. You just you told us that setting boundaries is all about feeling safe with your partner and others, you know, creating that safe environment where you can feel secure, and that this is always going to be a work in progress. Your relationship is a work in progress. So you have to constantly have these conversations, set expectations, learn to unlearn, accept and amend, you know, make amends and keep working on it one day at a time. This is amazing. This is amazing. Thank you so much. I'm sure our listeners will benefit just like they did last time.
Unknown Speaker :Thank you. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker :Thank you.
Unknown Speaker :Thanks for joining us this week on heroes of New York. Make sure to visit our website on cnn.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes. If you love the show, please leave a rating on iTunes so that we can continue to bring you amazing episodes. Thanks for listening and see you in two weeks from now.